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Home: Perl Programming Help: Advanced: PERL Dilemma

stanley Novice Aug 3, 2000, 5:23 AM Post #1 of 19 (6428 views) PERL Dilemma Can't Post I'm a perl developer but recently my manager urge me to migrate to JAVA (100% pure Java), duh... can anyone here please let me know how do I convince him? Any good articles or Can anyone here show me which companies (big one) use PERL/CGI? Thanks

perlkid stranger Aug 3, 2000, 6:13 AM Post #2 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post   Tell him amazon's search engine is perl. Tell him sun is the only one who uses java. geo cities, and other sites with lots of error messages too. Check perl.com They have articles. Also tell him that java is a toy for the net. java really is just for looks, like image manipulation and mouse overs. Except for cookies. That's pretty much the most I use java for in the data arena. Perl is the language to handle large amounts of data and run the back ends of sites. Also java is a client side language, so everything you do in java has to download to your pc before running. Perl runs immediatly. That's why java applets take so long to run. Oh, And do tell him that ie 5.5 which was just released in the past three weeks droped a lot of java features. I had to dump all the java off our site because ie 5.5 doesn't support java history. And internet explorer covers almost the round number of 90% of the browser market. Microsft hates java. I think you could find some great java bashing articles on their site too. When microsoft realest it's new c# language their was a lot of java bashing. So check in their developer area. This url talks about the c# java battle http://www.vnunet.com/News/1104875 So you can worry him by saying that a microsoft developed language c# is going to replace java and if microsoft does well in court they will be able to take most of the java console out of their browser. They say that dhtml (also developed by microsoft) can do all of the same flashy trciks as java like mouse overs and other image stuff, so they think that developers would have no problem using microsoft's dhtml to replace their java to allow the same functionality to their web site. Besides, even if they lose their court battles they were offered a full corperation move to Canada by the canadian government. So If microsoft leaves the us government can't do anything. So what's stopping microsoft in the long run? (From removing the java console that is.) Hope that helps, perlkid

perlkid stranger Aug 3, 2000, 6:21 AM Post #3 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post   On a further note, I'm trying to give you ideas to swing his desicion. I'm very much aware that java is not just a scripting language that is written into the html, but also can run very complex programs, even search engines and such. I mean no offense to java programmers either. I'm trying to take a one sided view and gush out ideas at stanley. Hope I did well. perlkid

errr Deleted Aug 15, 2000, 10:10 AM Post #4 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post [unrelated comment snipped by Admin -- kids, play nice ] First off, learn the difference between java and javascript. Java is in no way some "a scripting language that is written into the html". That is javascript. Java is a complete programming language. Java is not just applets either. As for your other claim, you're obviously clueless there as well. amazon does NOT use perl and cgi. I'm not sure exactly what language it uses (/exec/obidos is in the url), but there is NO WAY IN HELL that they use CGI. CGI is SLOW. Period. CGI is slow. Say it again. You got that? CGI is slow. If you didn't know this you obviously have done no real world programming. CGI is slow. Last time. CGI spawns a process with every hit. Instead we have technologies such as mod_perl and perlis and other such goodies to build perl into the server. cgi can only be used in relatively LOW traffic situations. okay, now lets take a look at java. we're not going to look at applets. applets and cgi scripts have a different purpose. comparing the two is stupid and pointless. a java servlet is a java class that runs INSIDE THE SERVER. Very much like mod_perl. a java servlet may not be as fast as mod_perl (no real good tests that I have seen so far comparing the two) but it is DEFINITELY faster than CGI. CGI is slow. Okay I promise, thats the last time I'll say that. anyhow, servlets handle each call as a different thread. this is very efficient. there is a LOT to java you obviously have no clue about. and a lot to perl, considering the fact you are under then impression that CGI is being used by big companies. Ok, on to big companies. Big companies are using specialized servers with very fast things built into them to run things. Things like mod_perl, servlets, jsp (java server pages.. another great technology), and server specific extensions. hp and other big companies use java for their work. the objects being created are VERY business centered and high quality. The same cannot be said about many of the CPAN modules. ok, lets recap 1) java is NOT javascript. java is NOT just applets. server side java gives you a rich programming language with access to many business centered tools. 2) perl is not CGI. cgi is slow--perl can be fast. the two are not linked.. 3) big companies use java a lot for production work. perl is used a lot for low traffic things. 4) im not going to judge which is better--both perl and java are very powerful languages. mod_perl is a must for perl web work. servlets are what would be used for java web work. java is NOT a client side language. java CAN be used on the client and it CAN be used on the server. 5) there is nothing wrong with learning another language. it helps your programming skills and makes you more valuable 6) [irrelevant comment snipped] well hope that helped. [This message has been edited by Admin (edited 09-01-2000).]

errr Deleted Aug 15, 2000, 10:33 AM Post #5 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post join me at dalnet #perl if you wanna talk

aytekin Deleted Aug 19, 2000, 12:19 PM Post #6 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post   I don't agree with err. He is full of errors. I will not start exception handling here. But I have to point out these: 1. Perlkid didn't say amazon.com is using CGI 2. Perlkid didn't say java is embedded into HTML You should tell your boss that when you start doing projects with java same job will take three times more time to develop. The best solution would be to use both on what they are good at. Java is not very bad, servlets run pretty fast, it is highly OO, and provides a nice graphical interface with awt and swing. But I think as Larry Wall said two months ago at YAPC: It is "BORING".

errr Deleted Aug 19, 2000, 1:01 PM Post #7 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Q. Can anyone here show me which companies (big one) use PERL/CGI? A. Tell him amazon's search engine is perl. So either he believes in the mythical beast PERL/CGI or he just fails to mention otherwise. >Also java is a client side language, so >everything you do in java has to download to >your pc before running. He obviously knows nothing about servlets >I'm very much aware that java is not just a >scripting language that is written into >the html sounds like he doesn't know the difference between java and javascript java doesn't take three times as long. someone proficient in java will do things just as quickly as someone proficient in perl. its the user, stupid.

errr Deleted Aug 19, 2000, 1:02 PM Post #8 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post P.S. ALL web is boring

Wiliam Novice Aug 23, 2000, 1:57 AM Post #9 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Ok, so who rocked your cage? ;-) Just to add my 2 cents. I don't think Amazon is using Perl. They could well be using Perl for small sections or small jobs within their site, however. After all they are hosting their databases on a unix based server using Apache. Wil.

mckhendry Deleted Aug 23, 2000, 3:09 PM Post #10 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post This is in response to Stanley's original question. . . Take a deeper look into mod_perl. Also, errr, Java does take longer to develop in. I don't know what world you live in, but obviously you must not have done much in java.

errr Deleted Aug 30, 2000, 7:42 PM Post #11 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Depends on the scope of the project. perl is of course fastest for smaller projects.. I love perl, I think perl, I sleep with perl and I dream perl. I can write code in perl a LOT faster than I can write java code. but in a large project the times are going to be roughly equal. especially in the commercial world where java has a lot more premade components ready. There are more commercial grade modules and more products that actually spit out java code. but yeah, perl is definitely faster for smaller projects.

ka0osk Deleted Aug 31, 2000, 4:51 AM Post #12 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Java is being pushed because managers believe everything they read in magazines. Websphere is being pushed because IBM wants to sell machines. Perl is being pushed because it is efficient and FAST. Mod Perl with javascript checks is about as fast as you are going to get without doing some serious C work. Java as a development language is slow to develop, and with so many uninformed managers trying to do it, good luck finding enough Javaheads to get any sizable project done. The switch to Java can only net about* a 5-6%improvement, and you can probably get that by fiddlin with the modPerl anyway. As for EBAY and AMAZON types, They would use either modPERL or C++, unless they have totally re-written all of their code recently. *NOTE: THIS ASSUMES THE JAVA IS WRITTEN CORRECTLY, and if they have to hire half-competents, good luck! LOL

ka0osk Deleted Aug 31, 2000, 5:09 AM Post #13 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Forgot to mention the development situation in terms of commercial apps... Companies that develop the 'miracle' development suites are the ones that put the mis-leading adverts in the magazines. Perl doesn't really need clever suites, as it is written by and for PROGRAMMERS (Java-sold managers please add this word to your vocabulary). The idea that web apps can be put together from packages, just adds to the list of ho-hum-isms that make much of the web so boring. Don't forget; Perl is free. Those clever Java suites cost bucks... So of course those are what you are going to see in the industry rag-mags! ------------------ John (ka0osk@netscape.net)

Admin Deleted Aug 31, 2000, 10:18 PM Post #14 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post I have to admit, this was a pretty intense discussion, but it would have been better if the personal slurs and attacks were absent. Kids, play nice or don't play at all.

perlkid stranger Sep 1, 2000, 10:23 AM Post #15 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post  Hey err, I Finally read your post, I know that java isn't just written into the html, I did mean to say java script, sorry for the mistype. And amazon, I never said they do, I said to tell him that. You can execute a cgi without having a cgi extention. I do it all the time. You can configure your server that way. And you said "you obviously have done no real world programming". Excuse me, I work for a search engine and do all of the programming for them. This isn't a small company. I have written programs that are very complicated and extremly fast. I wrote a search engine that searches 1.2 million lines in 2-4 seconds. Please don't tell me I don't do any real world programming because I indeed do. I'm so offended I don't know what to say to you. I deserve some respect, maybe not very much but at least enough to keep you from calling me stupid. I mean no disrespect to you even though you have shown me none. Thank You and Regards, Perlkid [This message has been edited by perlkid (edited 09-01-2000).]

perlkid stranger Sep 1, 2000, 10:40 AM Post #16 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post   Oh and errr, Since you say java script is not slow, Why is the nav bar on this site so slow???? perlkid

patk Deleted Sep 2, 2000, 1:43 PM Post #17 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post The nav menus on this site is kind of annoying because it slows the browser down, but they are kind of cool :-) I would have to say my experience with has been a lot more easier then my experience with JAVA. They teach either C++ or JAVA in highschools now just because of the attention JAVA gets from the media. But it really does depend on what you are trying to do and in how much time. So, you are all right :-)

Wiliam Novice Sep 8, 2000, 7:45 AM Post #18 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post What search engine do you work for Perlkid? Any URLs? As for the Javascript; I thought the speed of Javascript was governed by the speed of the machine it is executed on? Rgds, Wiliam Stephens

fashimpaur User / Moderator Sep 8, 2000, 12:42 PM Post #19 of 19 (6428 views) Re: PERL Dilemma [In reply to] Can't Post Hey All, Just one more for perl, If you don't want cgi and modPerl is not an option, why not .asp's? PerlScript in active server pages is easy, fast and takes nothing away from what you can do with normal perl. And, If you don't have an NT Server running IIS, that's okay, you can do asps with add_in's for Netscape/Enterprise, Sun Web Server and several others. Perl is powerful and easy. I think both Java and Perl have their own niche. Just my thoughts, Dennis Give me perl or give me ... just give me perl

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